Whether sharp, square or somewhere in between a theme I sometimes read on the forums is:"BetUS sucks""Bodog is horrible"
I hear it from people who are pretty sharp on not only betting, but in
their understanding of the industry. I hear it from the squarest of the
square. I hear it from those who sound sharp, but are actually clueless
on how everything works. But I wonder how this guy feels about these
Accept Transaction Reset Edit PlayerTransaction InformationMethod of Payment: [or credit card charge back]Transaction Type: Amount: Action BreakdownTotal Action $113,935.00 ††(includes pending wagers)Risk to Player $113,935.00 ††(all resolved wagers)Risk To House $103,410.00 ††(all resolved wagers)Net To Player ($1,075.00) ††(all resolved wagers)Hold: 0.94352042831439Current Balance $25445.00Notes About This Transaction:Personal InformationPlayer Name: XXX XXXXAddress: XXXXEncinoCA91436USPhone: XXXXXReferred By: XXXXInitials: XXPassword: 5656E-Mail: XXXX@aol.com
that amount of $25,000+ in his current balance? That WAS the amount in
his account when Camelot Sportsbook closed up shop and stiffed everyone
who was owed money. To understand why a place like Camelot went "busto"
and why a place like Bodog and BetUS have been raking in tons of money
over the years you need to go back 10 years or so. Our story begins with
a young fellow named Johnny Detroit and his launching of a site based
off one of his favorite movies "Let It Ride". Originally, I had a site
on a "free" web-hosting service called GEOCITIES and talked sports and
handicapped games (which usually lost). As the site grew in popularity,
I registered the domain LetItRideSports.com in 1999 and bought a copy
of Microsoft Frontpage. In May of 2000, the new site went live (LINK)
and along with some of the popular forum posters of the day we hit the
web. At this time it was only a hobby. I was booking some small time
action and betting at the same time. Most of the knowledge I had came
from an old school book from the 60's/70's who was now in the twilight
of his career. "Bookstore Eddie" died a
few years back, but was "old school" and was involved during the glory
years of the The Detroit Partnership/Combination. Obviously if he was
alive I would never say his name or be sharing this, but this is how
old school he was> LINK
(from 1974 when Ed (Edmond Burdziak) was caught up in a small bust) We
would meet at a place called 3 Nicks on Warren Avenue in Detroit.
Total dive bar that was packed with bikers, bookies and other
So with my love of gambling, knowledge from "Ed" and being in the infant
stages of the business I was off.This was the boom time for the
industry as sportsbooks and portals were popping up left and right.
There were no issues with sending or getting money and you could even
use PAYPAL to deposit/withdraw funds! Since the web site was more of a
hobby, my full time gig was an investigator at Ford Motor Company making
good money. A friend of mine from the forums (Nittany Lion/Betting
Prophets) one day goes you should ask a sportsbook to advertise on the
site since you have good traffic. Having no clue what to expect or ask
for, I called my friend who owned Grand Central Sports. (Quick note: At
this time, all the books did not have these massive marketing machines
as "marketing" was handled by the owner. If the book had a marketing
department, it basically was one other person who was responsible to
send you a banner and promo information). I am sitting at my desk and
talking to Peter (everyone offshore used fake names) and brought up to
him potentially advertising for the upcoming football season. Mind you, I
have ZERO clue on what to expect. So Pete pauses for a second, takes a
deep breathe and goes, "JD, I like you and you have a nice site, how
about $8000.00 for football?". Remember, I was doing this for fun, had a
full time gig and was hoping to get like $500.00 or something to put up
some banners. To this day, I recall hitting mute on my office phone,
taking a deep breathe and going "Holy F***ing S**t....". I went back to
the call cool as could be, closed the deal and called back my friend
telling him what happened and asking what the hell an insertion order
was because Pete needed one. I called a few other books and quickly
learned it was a land grab for these sprouting sportsbooks and all you
had to do was say Sportsbook X is on the site and they were fighting to
write checks and get their banners up on your site.
It was a glorious time. Wise guys were all over the place.-Henry Hill
I mentioned, during this time you dealt either with the owner himself
or someone who sat 10 feet away from them. Since there were tons of ways
to send money (including PAYPAL), money was flowing back and forth to
everyone and the industry exploded. Being lucky enough to be around in
the beginning, I built relationships with some of the sharpest people in
the business. Almost like the infant stages of Las Vegas
(pre-corporation), it was street guys who ran the show. Bookies who were
tired of getting doors kicked in, picked up shop and went offshore to
set up a web site to take bets. Unlike now where EVERY book moves at the
same time regardless of their in-house action and across the board the
lines are the exact same, these guys had "balls" and took stands and
moved when and how they wanted. This was a scalpers and middlers
paradise. Since everyone was trying to do a land grab, the funds were
endless for advertising and bonuses. Literally you could toss up a bunch
of sites and the books would send you a check to be on each one. You
could fund a few books with PAYPAL, get a CRAZY bonus from each and in a
few days scalp and middle the money out with no risk and pocket the
cash. The sky was raining money and everyone was living the dream. But
like with anything in life, what goes up, must come down.
Like sharks to blood, the wiseguys flocked to get into the money falling from above. People like Billy Walters (LINK to
a great story on him and the Computer Group) did not have to focus only
on locals around the country using beards to move money around. With
everything offshore, not only could they open up tons of accounts, they
were getting 100% bonuses to do so! Now, these guys offshore running
things were sharp, but outside of people like Spiro at Olympic, Henry at
Pinnacle and a few others, these "internet bookies" stood no chance
against the "internet wiseguys" like Billy, Kosher Boys, Tiger, etc. The
once friendly sportsbook owners now started to coin phrases like "bonus
whores". Even people offshore I was "super cool" with would make
comments that scalpers and middlers were "lowlifes" (including the ones
who taught me how to do it). The slippery slope was becoming more
slippery each passing month.The first signs that began the
downfall was sportsbooks not making good on transfers. See, in the
beginning almost all of the books knew each other and you could move
money book to book with a simple phone call or email request. So for
example, say you hammered BetUS for a ton of money. In those days you
could call BetUS and say I want to transfer X amount to Bodog, Y amount
to JustBet, etc. In a few hours the money would be credited and business
went on. Each sportsbook kept a running tab on who owed who and
everyone was one big happy family. Since most owners of the sportsbook
were available on IM or phone, industry rumors, gossip and back-room
stories were everyday discussion. It slowly seemed more common to hear
book X was no longer planning to do transfer with book Y. Even worse
some of the rumblings were about past due amounts and tabs getting close
to six figures.
When New England Patriot's kicker Adam Vinatieri
kicked a 48 yard field goal in Super Bowl XXXVI to upset the 14-point
favorite St. Louis Rams it shocked the sports world and started a chain
reaction that would change the sportsbook industry forever. Charlie
Therwhanger was a bookie from Texas who went offshore in the mid 90's
to run his phone operation and by the late 90's had an online site that
was considered one of the industry leaders; Aces Gold. Aces offered low
juice and was known to take a stand on a game and was a "bookmaker's
bookie". If you middled or scalped during this time, Aces Gold was a
"must out" and everyone who was anyone played there. This not only
included the grinders, but "wiseguy bettors" and other offshore
bookmakers. Behind the scenes Charlie was slowly running up debts and
trying to go "toe to toe" with the sharpest betting minds was starting
not to be such a solid business model. Whether urban myth or fact (I
have talked to many people offshore who claim 100% fact), Charlie
decided that based on his opinion and the opinion of some respected
"sharps", the St. Louis Rams would destroy the New England Patriots. The
line on the game was -14.0 at 99.9% of the betting world. The lone
hold-out was Aces Gold who proudly put up a -14.5, thus getting everyone
who wanted Patriot action (teaser, spread and (cough) moneyline) to bet
with him. Toss in all the middlers who did not mind a free +14.5 and
-14.0 on the Super Bowl he was essentially ALL Patriots action. Around
6:40pm EST on February 3, 2002 the Super Bowl was over and the New
England Patriots defeated the St. Louis Rams by a final score of 20-17.
Within two weeks the unthinkable happened and the house of
cards started to fall.
February 15, 2002 is the official date Aces
Gold closed up shop and Charlie fled Curacao. The aftermath was over $5
million owed to players and sportsbook owners. With close to a million
of the five owed directly to other bookmakers either from betting
accounts or credit transfers, nothing would ever be the same in this
business. Despite the crash of Aces Gold, most of the operators
continued to offer crazy bonuses and have an open door policy to the
very people that helped destroy Aces. Even though the claim for the
bonuses was to gain customers, many people will not admit it was to keep
money coming in to try and pay the money that needed to go out.
Everyone was treading water and all the sportsbook ran by "street
bookies" started to drown. The next big thing was Bet Pan Am.
They had great minds from various sportsbooks working there and the
forums were going crazy hyping up the "next" Pinnacle. Reduced juice,
not moving on air (IE, taking a stand on games) and not fearing
middlers/wiseguys, they were going to align the stars again and all
would be well in the betting universe. Close your eyes and count to ten.
That is about how long Bet Pan Am survived (actually was only four
months!) before they had to close their doors and it was one of the last
attempts by "street guys" to open and run a new offshore on a major
level using the "take all comers" business model.
in the end, we fucked it all up. It should have been so sweet, too. But
it turned out to be the last time that street guys like us were ever
given anything that fuckin' valuable again.-CASINO
can't remember the exact order of when they fell, but it seemed every
few months a new book was having money troubles out of the gate or a
"respected" shop was slow paying or offering 100% bonuses to try and get
an influx of cash. Just off the top of my head, here is a short list of
places that I played at on post-up or credit that never survived the
evolution of this industry:Aces GoldsAlladinsBet CamelotBet Pan AmBlue MarlinBookie JointDunesNew Age BetsPremier LeagueSports InternationalSportsbook ParadiseThe
writing was on the wall, unless you were Cris, Greek, Pinnacle or a
handful or sharper outfits (even many of them were gobbled up or bailed
out by other sportsbooks), trying to book like you did back in New York
or Texas was not going to work offshore. Even though some smaller places
were already trying to change their model, the new industry leaders
decided to focus on "marketing" and leave the "lines/odds" to the people
like CRIS and Greek. Why try to outsmart the professional bettors when
you could just follow Henry and Spiro, not cater to the sharp bettors
and spend all your resources on marketing? Enter Bodog and
Sportsbook.com.Unlike the founders of the industry who did the
marketing themselves or pawned it off on a lackey sitting 10 feet away,
people like Bodog took it to not just another level, but another
universe. An industry friend of mine was in the room when Calvin decided
"The Big Book" was not the brand to market. He wanted something unique,
creative and that could not be associated or confused with something
else. Thus, the name Bodog was born. I can still remember being in a
standard room at the Mirage with Calvin and some other industry friends
listening to him talk about banging a waitress in Amsterdam and in the
matter of a few years he is on the cover of Forbes being called a
billionaire with a "B". Unlike the old way of doing business, they
created marketing machines that tracked and audited every little detail.
They created content, learned SEO and sent out teams of smoking hot
girls to events around the country. In the matter of years Bodog could buy places like CRIS or Greek with the money found between the
cushion on their couch. Using this new model of "bookmaking",
places like BetUS came on the scene and a new generation of sportsbooks
started to make their mark in the industry. Unlike the old days of the
marketing plan of a sportsbook consisting of just having a banner
somewhere, the "new school" have entire teams of marketing experts and brainy types who run everything like a well oiled business. BetUS or
Bodog have a building full of marketing people, where when I dealt with
Olympic or Pinnacle there was a marketing "person". You literally called
and dealt with that one person. Pinnacle at one point had three people
you could deal with. When you watch the lines now, CRIS or Greek
sneeze and every sportsbook (including Las Vegas) jump. If they have
90% of their action on Team A -7.0, but CRIS goes to -6.5, they move to
-6.5. There is no more taking stands by the large offshores. All the new
major players in the offshore industry are of the Bodog mold. The
"street guys" are still around but confined to online "credit only"
shops with wacky names like Bet Kodiak or Fat Moe. Outside of the ones
who weathered the storm, all the major players now are not "Vito the
Bookie" but "Chip the Businessman".
Today it looks like Disneyland. And while the kids play cardboard
pirates, Mommy and Daddy drop the house payments and Junior's college
money on the poker slots. In the old days, dealers knew your name, what
you drank, what you played. Today, it's like checkin' into an airport.
And if you order room service, you're lucky if you get it by Thursday.
Today, it's all gone. You get a whale show up with four million in a
suitcase, and some twenty-five-year-old hotel school kid is gonna want
his Social Security Number. After the Teamsters got knocked out of the
box, the corporations tore down practically every one of the old
Here is a great listen for those interested in the topic: www.blogtalkradio.com/.../johnny-detroit-show-state-of-the-offshore-industry
Johnny, just saw your question, I came back to read your write-up again. To answer your question, my primary residence is in Ft. Lauderdale, but love Vegas. That is why I had asked you about that other thing a few weeks ago. I am going back to the strip again June 10 for a week. Still interested in that topic though. You have my email. Best to you and the family.
No worries. I actually have the customer list of when Aces went bust. Some of the amounts are INSANE people were stiffed on.
JD I thought I already commented on this last week but n e ways just wanted to say great read and I commend you for retaining all this info throughout the years to share with each of us. Keep the great stories coming my man!!
Thanks guys. Fish you live in Nevada?
just as informative on the 2nd read ;)
Always look forward to your dialogues, I find them a wealth of information and value to someone like me. Would love to personally meet with you someday.
Good read for all the offshore newbies.
sqaure1: that avatar should be edited ASAP :)
Thanks. I am lining up guests to talk about the "old days".
Good stuff JD. Look forward to the video series.
The far Christian Right are not fans of "sports gambling" and the senators/house with those people in their voting base have no choice but to listen.Not a fan of Barney Frank, but he is 100% for legalizing.
Johnny why do you think they don't legalize it all over the US it seems so stone age now